Alright, before anyone snorts and says it's not real, the truth is that it is real and AFF is even considering looking into the program for various things on the site that aren't allowed to be there (unlike fanfiction.net we would verify the results before any deletion takes place. This is the link that explains part of it. civilinitiative.blogspot.com/2010/08/redbotton-issue-and-what-it-means-for.html This is, indeed, real and they are doing this. We've been getting a major influx of authors from ff.net elsewhere who have had their stuff deleted from there because it was caught in this. So, a heads up to all those that post stuff on ff.net that is MA rated (they do not support MA rated fiction and it's against their TOS so if it's reported they will delete it) you might want to consider making sure everything is backed up.

I just got a PM from Sugar telling me about this. Earlier I received a PM from someone who sent me a similar PM on the blogspot site.

Let me express that this is not, let me repeat, NOT FF.NET running this bot. This is being done by a loser named "Lord Kelvin," who wrote a program on how to perform a search criteria on not just ff.net but other sites around cyberspace and is actually coordinating it through FF's forums. What they do is gather their information and then the bot floods ff.net and other sites with spam complaining about the content and the sites are either forced to warn the author and/or delete the story.

www.fanfiction.net/u/599541/Lord_Kelvin

forum.fanfiction.net/forum/Literate_Union/61196/

Assclowns with nothing better to do but terrorize writers and websites. The corrective measure is to repeatedly get on ff.net to stop this clown from spambotting the site.

Holy cow...thanks for the warning about ff.net and this program. It sounds like those redbotton people have nothing better to do than harrass writers.

that might be, but ff.net is responding and deleting the stuff they are receiving reports on. I dealt with three separate authors last night alone that lost everything they had posted on ff.net. As for ff.net doing something about it? Don't count on that. You can't get them to remove plagiarists let alone something like this. However, honestly, since ff.net does NOT support the hosting of MA rated fiction (that's clearly stated in their TOS since 2003) the truth is, your stuff, if MA rated in nature and reported will be gone. If this bot works like it says it does, it'll catch it.

Danyealle-sama wrote:
that might be, but ff.net is responding and deleting the stuff they are receiving reports on. I dealt with three separate authors last night alone that lost everything they had posted on ff.net. As for ff.net doing something about it? Don't count on that. You can't get them to remove plagiarists let alone something like this. However, honestly, since ff.net does NOT support the hosting of MA rated fiction (that's clearly stated in their TOS since 2003) the truth is, your stuff, if MA rated in nature and reported will be gone. If this bot works like it says it does, it'll catch it.


And that's all good and well. I'm not here to argue the logistics of what FF.net will and won't do. I honestly don't really care. Since I had received a warning from a poster earlier in the day, Sugar's subsequent warning didn't have all the information and my posting here was to clarify that info so that people don't rush into a blind panic. If my stories are deleted, then they're deleted. FF is a free site and it's their right to enforce their rule and lord knows I violate them enough with my stories so it's like fine whatever - I'm surprised that it took them this long. I have a private blog and a private message board so I can always reload, but I'm not going to let some full-of-himself brain damaged little toad with a possible penile dysfunction issue scare me into running into the shadows. FF.net will have to do what they have to do and I'll live with it.

Thanks for listening.

I stand up and applaud Kagome357's comments!

agreed kagome357!

I don't think there's a point in demonizing this Lord Kelvin. He's picking up the slack for what the mods at FF don't to themselves. Ever think maybe this person might have kids? Kids that he doesn't want stumbling into stuff that inappropriate. There's a reason FF didn't allow MA work in the first place. There's no reason for being angry at someone who's just enforcing the rules there in the first place. There are naturally bugs in search programs like the one he's created, it won't always be right. What gets deleted accidentally isn't some bots fault. Its the mods who deleted it. I really don't think this Redbotton is all that bad, and there's no sense insulting the person who made it.

Reading his profile is waht set me off...if FF.net wants to do this, that would be understood, even rightful on their part. Its the fact that this Kelvin took it upon himself for all the wrong reasons to make this bot. Its like we should all be aftraid of him. Its not just MA they are deleting though...if your writing isn't up to par then it also risks the chance of being deleted.

Its not the fact that they are doing it that upsets me...its the fact that this guy is doing it because he thinks he's all that...and that is what makes me mad.

I respect FFN's choice to exclude MA work from their site (as Kagome357 said, its a free site, and they have the right to set their policies as they choose, there are plenty of other sites where you can read adult stories), and at its heart I understand the aim of the RB program, but I agree with most other users in this thread that it isn't the business of some self-righteous 'big brother' figure to impose his personal standards on the entire fanfiction community.

And I'm sorry but it also isn't up to some anonymous hacker to protect my hypothetical kids. If people are worried about what their kids are going to find on the internet, frankly they shouldn't let them on it without supervision until they think they're old enough.

It sounds harsh, but seriously, if any parent thinks that their kids, naturally interested in and curious about sex, aren't going to find porn/erotica online they're in denial. I've been active in online fandom for going on 13 years, and I promise you that not only did I stumble on MA stories when I was in my early teens - I actively sought them out (and I know I'm not alone in this).

Ultimately this sort of mass thought-policing "for your own good" feels invasive and against the free-enterprise spirit of the internet and fandom as a whole. And I have to wonder, don't they have something better to do with their time? (though they're probably getting a HUGE kick out of causing such an internet kerfuffle)

I am agreeing with Monti on this one. I think all of you are missing the point and getting angry with the wrong being. First, I just posted the whole thing as a heads up that this was going on like others have about virus reports on DA in the past so that you can grab your stuff in case you get caught up in it. However, since all this mess has been generated, let me say this... Albeit I come in this from the perspective of someone that helps to moderate a site and will see things differently than you do, the issue isn't with the being reporting, but how the reports are handled.

I've reported stuff here on Dokuga, many times, on mediaminer, AFF, ff.net and other places. Just because I've reported it doesn't mean a thing, it's an e-mail telling them that I found such and such. The issue and who all of you should be mad at is fanfiction.net. It's how they are HANDLING THE PROBLEM that is getting the fiction deleted.

I can tell you personally, as I'm sure Wiccan, Miss K, Lady B, Skye and others that mod here and there on the net can that, normally, you don't just delete something outright because you got a report. Personally, over my time, I've handled hundreds of reports of all kinds for a ton of different things. Some are valid, some aren't. We don't just take a report and say 'oh, someone reported this and since they took the time to do that it must be right so let's go delete it!'. No, that isn't how it works. You look at the report then go look at the story then determine if it's valid. If we did that on AFF we would have about 1/4th of the stories it contains now because some people just don't like some kinds of fiction and find them offensive. There would probably be no yuri/yaoi, anything with dubious consent or dark fictions on the site. These are offensive topics to some and they report them. However, if you handle the reports just right, the wrong things don't get deleted. That is what ff.net is NOT doing. They are getting the reports and deleting without investigating. There is where the trouble comes in. Anyone can report anything at any time, like this program is doing, but since the being doing it doesn't have the power to delete the fiction, the problem lies with ff.net and their handling of it. That is who your anger should be directed at, not the being reporting. This is a case of kill the messenger if there ever was one.

I understand, as those I've already mentioned up above do as well, that moderating a site is hard work and takes a great deal of time as well as gets you nothing but grief more times than not however, that is not an excuse to do what ff.net is and just deleting things without investigating. If you have the time to hit that delete button on a fic, you have time to look into what the report says to see if it's legit. And, the last anyone heard, the moderators and admins on ff.net get PAID to do this so there is no reason in the world that they should be just deleting out of hand without some kind of investigation. That is the problem, not the program, the guy running the program, those helping, their snarky attitude, none of it. The problem is ff.net, period. Nor is this about censorship of stories. When you agree signing up for ff.net you agree to abide by their TOS and rules thus not posting some things. Again, it's about ff.nets handling of this, keep that in mind before your go off on someone because they are actually doing what the moderators and site says should be done. No, I'm not bashing ff.net or what they are doing, this is just how I see it, nothing more, and trying to put it in a perspective of someone that is more than just a reader/writer like most are on here and other fan fiction sites.

Getting all hot and bothered over this then ranting, raving and throwing a fit isn't going to do any good, it just causes hard feelings and for the whole situation to get worse. No one here can change what is going on. Only ff.net can do that and they don't seem to be inclined to do so. Just take this as a warning of what is going on and make sure that your stuff is backed up and saved in case it happens to you!

Danyealle-sama wrote:


I've reported stuff here on Dokuga, many times, on mediaminer, AFF, ff.net and other places. Just because I've reported it doesn't mean a thing, it's an e-mail telling them that I found such and such. The issue and who all of you should be mad at is fanfiction.net. It's how they are HANDLING THE PROBLEM that is getting the fiction deleted.

I can tell you personally, as I'm sure Wiccan, Miss K, Lady B, Skye and others that mod here and there on the net can that, normally, you don't just delete something outright because you got a report. Personally, over my time, I've handled hundreds of reports of all kinds for a ton of different things. Some are valid, some aren't. We don't just take a report and say 'oh, someone reported this and since they took the time to do that it must be right so let's go delete it!'.



I guess I didn't think of it that way...but I see what you are saying...and well, since I'm not too worried and I have things backed up now...i'm gonna stop beating a dead horse

Good points have been raised however one must be realistic. A website like FFnet and Deviant Art for example are massive. That's hundreds to thousands to millions of gigabytes worth of user-generated content sitting on who knows how many servers. Content that is constantly being created, modified, moved, or deleted by millions of users all over the world. That alone in itself could be thousands of files worth of images e.g. user icons, or html pages of text like stories.

While reporting systems are useful, in large interactive websites that provide free services to users globally, they become a necessity as power is passed onto the user to 'help' report TOS breaches to the website administration staff. Although Mod and web administrative staff 'should' investigate all reports before deleting content, at times when there are hundreds to thousands of reports coming in 24/7 is may be near impossible.

Mods can only do so much.

It is easier to use an Information System from the front end than to manage it from the back-end, behind the scenes. And on top of all the pretty tech, in dealing with a constant tide of user requests for help, the resolution of problems, etcetera takes a lot of time. All the hours in one day would never be enough to resolve them all.

It's sad that FF.Net has resorted to vigilantism when it comes to enforcing their rules. I wonder if capes and spandex are involved...

As for this thread, I'm happy that it's staying civil even though we have some rather polarized opinions on it. *puts fingertips together a la Mr. Burns* Excellent

I'm going to make one last comment and then I'm done with it. People here who web with me know that I'm straight, no chaser and I speak my mine and I will tend to get spirited and while that might irritate some, that's never gonna change. They know this is not me being mad. They've seen me mad...it aint pretty.

Anyhoo, this isn't about me demonizing this guy or getting mad or whatever. I can and have said worse and could have called this guy what he truly is, nor is this about the lack of policing FF.net does on their site. I get that - yes, they suck at it. This is me being concerned about not only what this guy is doing, but what he's asking people to download to their computers. I didn't just come over here to rant and rave about this idiot - I spent the better part of my evening actually reading the many manifestos that he posted around the internet and yes, you should be VERY concerned, but not about fan fiction. You should be concerned about the likes of him.

Don't take my word for it - read it yourselves. He has accounts EVERYWHERE stroking himself as some keeper of the faith but I see him for what he really is. lord-kelvin.blogspot.com/?zx=f2d1ddb52d6aa587

He's asking this Literary Union (?), on FF.net's own forums (he's ballsy enough to do it in their backyard) to download his .rar file and run his little Big Brother program. There are probably young people who think it's cute, in their mind's eyes, to affect change but what do you really know about this program? Not every spyware or cleaner program is going to be able to catch every virus program written. If you have a community computer at home that everyone uses or even computers linked through LAN or other connections, then there's a major concern with what's on this .rar program. Personal information, including SSN's, banking, credit card and gawd knows that with all of the ecommerce we conduct online and as such, that puts an entirely different spin on the matter.

Seriously. Do you really wanna put yourself at risk like this? Your sixth sense should be buzzing loud and clear right now.

I agree 100% with what you said. Even though I love some of the stories on ff.net, there hasn't been another website (other than deviantart) where my computer gets attacked by viruses/spyware as consistently as ff.net. To have another sort of bot circulating the site...ridiculous.


Kagome357 wrote:
I'm going to make one last comment and then I'm done with it. People here who web with me know that I'm straight, no chaser and I speak my mine and I will tend to get spirited and while that might irritate some, that's never gonna change. They know this is not me being mad. They've seen me mad...it aint pretty.

Anyhoo, this isn't about me demonizing this guy or getting mad or whatever. I can and have said worse and could have called this guy what he truly is, nor is this about the lack of policing FF.net does on their site. I get that - yes, they suck at it. This is me being concerned about not only what this guy is doing, but what he's asking people to download to their computers. I didn't just come over here to rant and rave about this idiot - I spent the better part of my evening actually reading the many manifestos that he posted around the internet and yes, you should be VERY concerned, but not about fan fiction. You should be concerned about the likes of him.

Don't take my word for it - read it yourselves. He has accounts EVERYWHERE stroking himself as some keeper of the faith but I see him for what he really is. lord-kelvin.blogspot.com/?zx=f2d1ddb52d6aa587

He's asking this Literary Union (?), on FF.net's own forums (he's ballsy enough to do it in their backyard) to download his .rar file and run his little Big Brother program. There are probably young people who think it's cute, in their mind's eyes, to affect change but what do you really know about this program? Not every spyware or cleaner program is going to be able to catch every virus program written. If you have a community computer at home that everyone uses or even computers linked through LAN or other connections, then there's a major concern with what's on this .rar program. Personal information, including SSN's, banking, credit card and gawd knows that with all of the ecommerce we conduct online and as such, that puts an entirely different spin on the matter.

Seriously. Do you really wanna put yourself at risk like this? Your sixth sense should be buzzing loud and clear right now.

Wow, I lost several stories, and most of them didn't even have sex in them... I only just now saw this. Well, I was thinking about pulling away from fanfiction writing completely. This is probably something that will make me just quit - on that site, not this one (to be clear ). I gotta figure out how to complain to ff.net...not that it'll help. Complete waste.

This only serves to drive people away from writing and creating...elitist jerks.

I wasn't originally going to post anything on this matter, but I feel a lot of people bring up important points. As Dani, Kagome 357, and many others have said it is more of case of bad handling on ff.net's part. I know many of us realize that these sites are huge and difficult to manage with all the influx of submissions as Pyreite has said, but I think that we all agree that it could be handled better than this. It is just a frustrating and almost baffling situation because who would have thought that the staff of ff.net would just start deleting whatever was reported, especially after doing nothing for so long and with without even a warning?

I think MontiK brings up a good point about this Kelvin. We don't know what he's like or what his main motives for doing this are besides the obvious it shouldn't be on ff.net anyhow part. I have to admit though that it is difficult to not be upset a little at him because with the way this situation is playing out it makes it look as though it is okay to create your own programs and start messing with a website that is not your own. I understand that a lot of stuff that is being deleted should not be there in the first place because of the TOS of ff.net, but I felt a bit of warning for authors would have been better so they could be sure to either take down their own stuff or save a copy. But again I understand because it should not have been there at all. I just worry that what Kelvin has been able to do will open a door to people believing that you can modify stuff to your liking.

In any case, there is no point in bashing Kelvin because this will situation will continue whether his motives are good or bad and I see no point in dwelling on it. I have to say that I wonder how ff.net's success as a website will stand up against the outrage of many of the people that use the site. In the end though I have to say it doesn't matter because people will move on from this as they have from the fall of other websites. If one site doesn't work then people will go where it does work. Luckily there are other sites where authors can post their work. I will always be grateful that we have Dokuga and I consider us very lucky to be as fortunate as we are to have the freedom to post a wide variety of things.

Danyealle-sama wrote:


The problem is ff.net, period. Nor is this about censorship of stories. When you agree signing up for ff.net you agree to abide by their TOS and rules thus not posting some things.


Getting all hot and bothered over this then ranting, raving and throwing a fit isn't going to do any good, it just causes hard feelings and for the whole situation to get worse. No one here can change what is going on. Only ff.net can do that and they don't seem to be inclined to do so. Just take this as a warning of what is going on and make sure that your stuff is backed up and saved in case it happens to you!

I am quoting these for truth.

I am applying this to dA as well.

You join a site, you are agreeing to THEIR TOS. In other words, you agree to PLAY BY THEIR RULES. If one of those rules says "NO MA FAN FICTIONS" Then it is simple. Don't do it. If you do, your subject to their penalty, I.E. the story being removed. If ff.net decides to use a bot made by someone to weed out problems, that is their right.

It is their site to run, and it is THEY who are held legally responsible should someone under age find inappropriate material on there.

Nobody forces you to submit to those sites. If you don't like their TOS, or their "rules" then you are free to leave. Nobody will stop you. Hell that is why I came to Dokuga in the first place. I had Sesskag arts and ideas and I KNEW they'd be taken down from dA. So I went someplace where they'd be okay.

Going on a ranting fit over it is silly. You won't change things that way. If anything, switch over. Help the Dokuga mods to run THIS site better so that way we'll have it to enjoy.

That being said, before anyone turns on me (which I hope they WOULDN'T do) I want to make it clear-- I do NOT support HOW ff.net is going about this, but I RESPECT the fact that it is their choice to do so. I left ff.net years ago for this very reason, and I found other places to get my fan fiction through.

Sorry to sound preachy.

I think the issue is when stuff that's not against the TOS gets targeted and taken down. Not stuff that's against the rules...

Aura wrote:
I think the issue is when stuff that's not against the TOS gets targeted and taken down. Not stuff that's against the rules...

I gathered that, but I realize I rambled a little one-sided on it.

My overall point in my above post is this: It is their site to run, and they are free to run it as they please. If you do not like how things are, there are other places to go. You give them permissions to put up or take down your work as they please, even if it is not in violation of a rule. (you give them the right when you agree to their TOS)

However, I need to point out that a lot of people who have things removed (mostly dA in this instance) claim up an down that it doesn't fall into the realm of mature. That is the argument I hear most anyway.

Wow. I have read the civil initiative blog and I have never read such backlash about this Lord Kelvin person and the 'Literary Union'. He probably means well in trying to do what the admins and mods have failed to do, but he should realize nothing good can come from what he's doing and that it could ultimately result in a mass exodus from ff.net and its closure. And seriously, would anyone with enough common sense take the risk of opening the program he created? It could contain spyware, trojans, and even some very nasty viruses.

Some of these bloggers made valid points. It should be up to the author to decide what to post on ff.net. after checking for any spelling or grammar errors, or what not. As he may or may not realize, some of these authors are rather young or their primary language isn't necessarily English. Though bashing this person may be therapeutic for some, it won't change anything on ff.net. Until everyone with an ff.net account floods the admins or mod with a massive number of e-mails, nothing will be done and many people will end up leaving the site altogether. We have to wait and see what happens, if anything happens at all on ff.net

Part of FF's rules is that your work should be edited. This is a quote from the Guidelines that pop up every time you want to post a new story there. (I've bolded some text)

Here is a list of conducts that should always be observed:
Spell check all story and poetry. There is no excuse for not performing this duty. If you do not have a word processor that has the spell checking feature, use a search engine such as Google.com to find one.
Proofread all entries for grammar and other aspects of writing before submission. 'Hot off the press' content is often riddled with errors. No one is perfect but it is the duty of the writer to perform to the best of his/her ability.
Respect the reviewers. Not all reviews will strictly praise the work. If someone rightfully criticizes a portion of the writing, take it as a compliment that the reviewer has opted to spend his/her valuable time to help improve your writing.
Everyone here is an aspiring writer. Respect your fellow members and lend a helping a hand when they need it. Like many things, the path to becoming a better writer is often a two way street.
Use proper textual formatting. For example: using only capital letters in the story title, summary, or content is not only incorrect but also a disregard for the language itself.

So saying that the things up on FF now with terrible grammar and absolutely no attempt to proof read have a right to be there is wrong. Yes, things will get accidentally deleted but overall I think all the Redbootton program does is pretty cool. I'm glad someone is taking quality control into their own hands.

Stuff that gets accidentally picked up by the bot and deleted is once again FF's fault. The bot only reports, it doesn't delete.

Also, if you have an FF account keep reading those guidelines. It also states that chapters as ANs and many other writer faux-pas are against the rules.

As an Administrator, I appreciate all those who PM me with questions about stories that might be violating our rules. I am generally the only Admin who investigates rules violations in the fan fiction portion of our site, so it helps to have other eyes alerting me to what I might have missed.

I would NOT, however, appreciate being bombarded with PMs as a result of someone using a program that, after having reviewed this guy's leavings all over the 'net, was developed by someone with what I consider rather strange, if not spurious, motives. This person is OBVIOUSLY not just in it to "protect" others. He's out for blood wherever he can find it and it bothers me that he's sucking others into doing his "dirty work."

Here at Dokuga, we try to allow others to develop their talents, and give them encouragement to do so. We allow seven days for those notified to clean up whatever problem triggered a warning, with the exception of plagiarism. Often, I will give them even more than the standard seven days. We try to work with our authors to encourage them to better themselves and their writing.

We DO monitor minors on the site. We do so to make sure that we are not tagged as a pornographic site that is easily accessed by minors - I'm sure no one here wants to see Dokuga disappear because of something like that, do they? So, in one way, yes - we do play "big brother" on this site. We do this for site preservation more than we do to "protect" fragile minors from reading adult material... we do not wish to run afoul of any laws that might put the site in jeopardy. Period.

I thank Danyealle-sama for bringing this 'bot to our attention. I thank Kagome357 for linking us to this person's information. And I want to encourage our members to NOT attempt use this program on our site as a way to generate action regarding things with which they may have problems. I'm not even sure if it CAN be used here, but I want to nip things in the bud before they become problematic.

I would also, as Kagome357 cautioned, NOT download this little gem... you never know what the heck lurks in freeware programs. You should not download ANYTHING with an executable file unless you do so from a trusted site like CNET. While ff.net and other sites may see this as a way to combat the problems of shrinking Admin time versus burgeoning problems, I would not advocate its use unless it was fully vetted by a reputable site. If such vetting occurs, and if we find that our problems here outweigh what I see as the drawbacks to using such a program, we might consider it in the future.

Still, Dokuga is a COMMUNITY. We rely on our COMMUNITY MEMBERS to let us know if they find things that violate our rules. We rely on our COMMUNITY MEMBERS to be kind, welcoming, discreet, friendly, and to act like members of a community. No chiding notes about rules violations in reviews or comments, no flames; just PMs to either Admins or the person in question when one finds a problem.

Keep our public discourse friendly, encouraging, and kind. That's what we're all about here, right?

~~Wiccan~~
Site Admin
PS - PLEASE READ THE RULES here. There is a link to them at the bottom of every page on the site, and you can also find them HERE: http://dokuga.com/rules

I will add this (OMG, I have so much to say!! I'll hush after this)

I am glad the Dokuga Community is growing now as a result of this. =) More talent and creativity !!