I know people in Dokuga are amiable and tolerant, but I still wanted to put this out there.

There are a lot of nationalities in Dokuga and all of us are a little different. I, myself, am from a non-english speaking country and my language varies greatly from English. And as such, the way we speak and express ourselves is a bit different too.

I had an incident relating to that with a review (on FFnet). I really liked the story and said to her that she should post it in a particular forum. (It went along the lines of: 'this is awesome. You should post it...') And the way I worded it is considered polite where I come from.

Unforutnately she took offense to that and said 'don't tell me what I should and shouldn't do'. I apologized and explained what I meant and she told me that she took offense to how I said it.

So I wanted to tell people that the way different cultures experess themselves are, well, different. I try to be polite and express myself in the way native English speakers do (there are very subtle differences), but I slip sometimes.

If I word or say something in a way that you find offensive, please understand that it was not my intention to do so. I don't bash people and never intentionally antigonise them.

I wanted people to understand, and also to know if someone had these kinds of experiences too. And what others think about this?

I know most people are a lot more tolerant, but I sitll worry sometimes that the was I phrased it was wrong, too blunt or seemingly callous (We're here a lot more blunt and 'straight to your face')

~lily

Lily,

This is a tough thing. In my opinion, what you wrote as part of your review was very complimentary. Verbally, if someone said that to me, it's an obvious compliment.

I don't think that this is a cultural thing, rather an individual thing. The person you were communicating with took offense somewhere that they shouldn't have. What can you do? It's among the perils of communicating.

You seem like a nice person. Don't worry about it too much and move on.

It sounds like you had a run-in with someone who is more than a little uptight and took things very personally. I can understand your desire to want them to share their work with others but in the future it may be wise to simply not make such suggestions.

Many writers of fanfiction are young and/or immature and many do not care if you are not a native speaker of their language. Is it fair? No. Unfortunately, there is little we can do in regards to such miscommunications. All we can do is keep our own little corner of the internet friendly to all.

I wouldn't spend my time worrying about how others might take what you say. If they take offense all you can do is apologize and go on - that is the same for native speakers as well. If they continue to take offense then it has become their problem and you cannot do anything about it.

Culture and language use are indeed connected, to the point that people who are from different cultures and who speak different languages may even perceive the world differently.
I won't go into this matter any more deeply than this though, as I'm afraid I'd totally get carried away. (I happen to study translation & linguistics at the uni, so I should be well versed in the subject matter...)

I think it might be very easy to forget sometimes for people who are from English-speaking countries that communities such as this one, for example, are indeed international, because English is the dominating language for obvious reasons. And if non-native English speakers mingle on the site, using English, fluently, it may be impossible to tell that they're not, in fact, communicating in their first language.

By your post, Lily, I would have been unable to tell that you were not a native English speaker if you had not told so yourself, as you have a good command of the language. :3

But I can relate to this subject matter very much, I think. I, too, try to be polite, but I think I might still be way too blunt sometimes. Even if I would express myself in English, I'm still a Finn. Hopefully, I have not offended anyone with my Finnishness. ^^;

Lily Noir wrote:
I had an incident relating to that with a review (on FFnet). I really liked the story and said to her that she should post it in a particular forum. (It went along the lines of: 'this is awesome. You should post it...') And the way I worded it is considered polite where I come from.

Unforutnately she took offense to that and said 'don't tell me what I should and shouldn't do'. I apologized and explained what I meant and she told me that she took offense to how I said it.


I can understand completely where you're coming from with this- not that I am from a non-English speaking area, so much as I was raised with sarcasm and barbed humor as a second language, so a lot of times I would encounter issues with people that I really only comminucate with via the internet because they would misinterpret something I'd said and get offended, when I hadn't intended it that way and, no matter how many times I reread my own words, I couldn't pick out from it what they were offended over.

In the instance you've presented, I can't honestly say, based on her response, that the issue was your phrasing. The large problem in communicating with people in written word is that it is very easy to misinterpret even the most innocent and utterly inoffensive of statements. I mean . . . unless you came off like you were ordering her to post it, than I don't see a call for a 'don't tell me what I should or shouldn't do' response. It might not have anything to do with how you put what you meant to say, and everything to do with how she took what she thought you were saying- regardless of what words we use, people are bound to think they know what's 'under' those words.

Example: Person A says 'I'm going to do this' . . . Person B and C both say 'Oh, don't do that.' One of those two, very same responses is genuinely saying 'don't do it' while the other is being sarcastic and suggesting 'go ahead and do it'. Which one is which? There's no way to tell because you can't infer emotion or intent into flat text, but we don't speak in flat tones (i think this is why monotone speakers drive most of us up a wall, lol) so we're aren't really used to processing words without trying to put intent behind it because we try to understand what people actually mean beyond the words used.

I could be completely wrong on this, I don't know precisely what you said, but given the response, I am inclined to think that the way she took what you said had more to do with her own perception of what you were saying. If you deal with someone who's constantly being told what to do and then you, trying to be friendly and supportive, try to suggest something you think this person should do, chances are they're going to take it as you're doing the same thing as everyone else and telling them what to do.

That aside, it is always good to be cautious of how you phrase things and to be aware that what you're saying might be misinterpretted- when getting to know people via the internet, I often tend to include little reminders or notes on anything I write to them to say 'This is meant to be taken with humor/sarcasm', something to that effect, or at the very least, I explain what I mean when I've said a particular thing and remind them that if I ever say something that offends or irritates them to let me know what it was because, chances are, I didn't intend it to come off the way they took it.

If you're really worried about offending someone accidentally, than take that moment to remind them that English isn't your first language and somethings might not come off how you mean them. Chances are they'll be a whole lot more understanding about anything that doesn't come across quite right, and will more likely to come to you about it to ask what you meant rather than just snapping at you.

Your comment sounded polite to me! I wouldn't have been offended if you had left that review for my story. I am from an english speaking country and I sometimes word things badly. I understand that you worry because you are not a native english speaker and might express yourself differently, but I don't think that comment was offensive in any way.

I agree with Zandrellia about many of the writers being very young. Having a teenage daughter I know that she sometimes gets easily offended over the smallest things.

I also feel like people don't stop to think about the fact that when you read something, you really don't know the person's personality or mind set. I could read a comment and feel like the person might have meant it hatefully and someone else could read the same comment and take it that the person was saying it nicely. So I always try to take any comment I read as being said nicely unless of course it's just full of derogatory remarks.

I wouldn't worry about it. It's like the old saying goes, you can please some of the people some of the time, and most of the people most of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

"I can understand completely where you're coming from with this- not that I am from a non-English speaking area, so much as I was raised with sarcasm and barbed humor as a second language, so a lot of times I would encounter issues with people that I really only comminucate with via the internet because they would misinterpret something I'd said and get offended, when I hadn't intended it that way and, no matter how many times I reread my own words, I couldn't pick out from it what they were offended over."



LOOOL Freya!!! Sorry about having to copy and paste this but I have yet to figure out how to quote portions of text (I feel like such a moron). I was raised exactly the same way!! So I often run into the same problems.

I think it was the individual... not your wording. Although you have a point about ultural and language differences, I think that in this particular case, it was the person with whom you were speaking/writing.

I agree with what you all said and know that most wouldn't react that way. The review was actually quite short, just what I wrote previously and the name of the forum.

And amy, I agree with that saying wholeheartedly, mum always drilled it into my head as a kid whenever I was afraid I'd made her mad (She always said I was rater sensitive to others' feelings). Though, I was cured of that rather quickly during my teenage years as, like Freya, I was raised with a sarcastic mother (who just LOVED to barb and tease me) and a cyinical father. (but there may be some traces left).

I always had people snap back at me during my early days on the net for being too blunt, calous and sometimes even too easygoing. That's probably where my wish to be polite and not taken wrong came from.

I don't preoccupy myself too much on those that take offense where there is little to be taken, but I started this thread to kinda make people aware that there are some who don't have the best grasp of English, and as such can unwittingly offend others by their wording.

Because, as Chie said, culture and language are interconnected, and very much so. Human kind perceves and explains the word by their languges. (Example: Inuits have a lot of words for snow, that came from the fact that they live with it and can differentiate between 'snow with big snowflakes', 'snow with little snowflakes', 'dirrty snow', 'clean snow', etc..., but for me who has seen snow maybe twice in my entire life it's all just snow) Where I'm from, the word 'please' is used only when it's truly needed (as we are rather prideful people), and excessive use may label you as spineless and a 'suck up'. Whereas in say Germany saying 'please' in everyday conversation is considered polite and that's how you'll come as.

I was in Austria a year ago, and I was astounded by how polite the people were, it even made me feel a bit uncomfortable (especially in restaurants). People would say 'Could you pass me the salt, please.', where I'm from, we prefer to leave out the please, saying 'Could you perhaps pass me the salt.'.

It's not that different, but I'm saying that sometimes those subtle little differences count.

I personally don't take offense when someone snaps at me (unless that person is ouright insulting me), on the contrary, I'm happy when someone says that I've insulted them (I admit that that came out sounding wrong -_-'). Because then I know that I did something wrong and I have the chance to correct the mistake. Also, people here(where I am) are rather snappish, so taking offense would be pointless (as I would then be offended most of the time), and I snap right back at them .

I don't get offended by words, rather by the tone behind them. That's where the problem with internet is as Freya said. If someone was raised in an antagonistic environment, chances are that they would percieve things more on the antagonistic side, If someone was raised in an amiable environment, chance are that they'd more tolerant and more prone to letting things slide.

And I've gone on for too long with this post. Sorry for rambling like that , I just wanted to make people a little more aware.

~lily

Lily Noir wrote:
I started this thread to kinda make people aware that there are some who don't have the best grasp of English, and as such can unwittingly offend others by their wording.

And I think it's important to add that even if the person WOULD have a great grasp of English, their native cultures will still affect their writing and behaviour and perceptions.

For example in my first language we also use a lot of passive voice and have ways of speaking somewhat indirectly. I was actually surprised once when writing a review reply here on Dokuga I saw that someone had actually adressed the reviewer by his/her nick in another review reply - such a thing would not even cross my mind, I would not dare to address anyone directly unless I'd feel like I'd know that person even somewhat.

Such curious little things, I think it's the most interesting how other cultures can teach you to understand your own culture so much better. :3

I can honestly say that, to me, your comment was, not only polite, but very complimentary of that person's work. Many times, I have said to someone, "That is awesome! You should totally post it so-and-so." And if someone said that to me, I would take that as a compliment instead of taking offense to it. I think it wasn't so much the wording as just the person itself. lol.

And for that matter, English is not my first language either. I was born in America, but I am actually of Taiwanese descent. Because of this, I actually struggle with both languages. lol. Since my parents don't know how to speak English, I had to learn it on my own. Since I don't live in Taiwan, I had to learn Taiwanese and Mandarin from my parents, which had limited me as well because they didn't have time to teach me and my parents led difficult lives in which they, themselves, were not able to get much of an education.

So in the end, I can speak Mandarin, I can understand Taiwanese, and English is probably my most skilled language - though, still not my native.

Lily, I think your comment was very polite and that the person who read it just took it heart a little too much. And I totally agree with what everyone is saying on here. Culture and language do interconnect just like Chie said. I also like to think that regions and dialect play a part too. I'm a native English speaker and I'm from deep south (known for our hospitality and kindness. ) and I was raised to the whole nine yards, please, thank you, etc. So I try my very best to not offend but in the end you cannot satisfy everyone (I learned that lesson one too many times!) I would have never guessed you weren't a native English unless you had said so! Wonderful job!

And like they were saying a lot of fanfic writers are younger than most of us so of course they are at that stage....

Anywho, I wouldn't worry so much about what that person said, they will get over it eventually.

It is the internet. You are bound to upset someone.

That is the hitch with text. It doesn't always carry tone, and there are people out there who are very quick to assume everyone is against them.

Brush it off and move on. Just take it as: they were having a bad day, and even if you had spouted rose scented sonnets at them, they would have still been upset.