ladybattousai wrote:
It's sad that FF.Net has resorted to vigilantism when it comes to enforcing their rules. I wonder if capes and spandex are involved...

As for this thread, I'm happy that it's staying civil even though we have some rather polarized opinions on it. *puts fingertips together a la Mr. Burns* ExcellentYou've just got your baton waiting, dont you?

My frustrations are definitely aimed at the fanfiction.net staff because really Lord Kelvin and his RedBootton program is a result of the staff’s negligence. If the staff had been doing a better job of regulating the rules by issuing out warnings, giving proper penalties, and investigating reports this would not have happened because there would have been no need. This Kelvin guy obviously thought there was a need and as mentioned in previous posts there is. This is how he went to go solve the problem.

I definitely don’t agree with his tactics, though. Using a questionable program that could very well be crawling with Trojans and viruses isn’t a sound solution to me. Not to mention, his profile comes off as more of an arrogant bully than someone who just wants to make fanfiction.net a better site.

I think what a lot of people are angry about is how FF.net is going about it. This bot seems to take away the authors ability to correct any problems, by not giving them warning or alerting them to the problems. The site simply removes it to stop the reporting being done by the bot.

Another thing that is upsetting people from what I can tell on the different blogs is that Lord Kelvin takes it upon himself to be a critic. If you read some of his examples of his reviews and his posts he writes, you see he considers himself this. I only want to know his qualifications to be a critic. Being a fan fic author is not enough, really how can you correct grammar and format if you don't have a degree that has anything to do with English, or Literary Sciences at all? To be a critic even a food critic usually the person has a background in Culinary Arts, and Journalism. The same is said for a Literary Critic, they usually have a background in English and Literature. I have no problem with him if he has at least a little bit of background in these things. I mean just because I cook, and pretty decent at that, does not mean I am qualified to be a food critic. When one comes off as a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou jerk people are less likely to take what is honestly good advice and meant to help. Some people can't help but speak like that, I am so guilty of this it is embarrassing, I can't help it, I will admit however I always have examples and proof to back me up and if I happen to be wrong I will admit to it.

From what I can see it how they have taken upon themselves to be critic/censor Nazi's, that if things don't fit their views then they must be removed. If it violates the TOS then it should be removed, with this I fully agree. But even in the Tos it says to and I quote ' No one is perfect but it is the duty of the writer to perform to the best of his/her ability.

Everyone here is an aspiring writer. Respect your fellow members and lend a helping a hand when they need it. Like many things, the path to becoming a better writer is often a two way street.'


To me this means that you should honestly give your best try, not everyone does this and is content to just throw anything up. I have read some really horrible fics that were riddled with mistakes, I am not perfect and I know this and I have many mistakes in my own works. I try to read my fics through at least once a week and I will catch errors I have made that I never noticed before, even in a fic I had read a day before.

By giving criticism in a gentle way and worded in a way not sound like you are so much better than them, it helps them to accept the criticism. Condescension is never a good way to help someone, all it will do is turn them off and possibly anger them. I try to give reviews that help and praise them where it is due. I rarely leave reviews unless it is like hope you feel better or if someone needs encouragement to not stop writing. I am always afraid of offending someone by coming off like I am so much better than them. However one thing that annoys me is when someone who has never published a story or poem gives a nasty review, how can you judge another authors work they put out there, when you don't take the same chances on yourself?

This bot or having just any one do something like this opens it up for abuse. What I mean by that is, if someone just doesn't like an individual, what is to keep them from using this as a tool to harass them?

My take is the real issue is people are viewing what they are doing as a violation of their rights, and they are forcing their views on people. Most of this could have been avoided by being a bit more polite about things and not coming off as 'My way is the best way, you must adhere to it.' From what I can see they were simply trying to clean up the site and help out, and things got out of control.

OK, Here is a question for everyone. Y'all keep talking about the TOS on FF.net, and how is it keeps saying that no MA content allowed. Well if that is the case, then why would FF.net have the option for M Rated material. That sounds a little hypercritical to me. To say NO on one subject matter being posted but still allow for it to be posted. After all, like DA, when you post something, you have to rate it before you submit it.

I am a little confused here. Perhaps because i just read and post art, that i dont know the finer details on the matter. I have been reading from Ff.net for 10years or more, what i find there is no different then what i find here.

IT allows M which is different from Ma,

here is the ratings system that they use

M:Not suitable for children or teens below the age of 16 with possible strong but non-explicit adult themes, references to violence, and strong coarse language.

MA:Content is only suitable for mature adults. May contain explicit language and adult themes.


There is a difference between the two, one that I was not aware of really before but now I understand and voluntarily took down my story on there Second Chance At Happiness. I didn't understand until I took notice of this controversy and realize I was in violation. I am also removing A Child's Proposal for the same thing, even though there is only one sex scene it is explicit enough to fall under the Ma rating.

animegrl wrote:
OK, Here is a question for everyone. Y'all keep talking about the TOS on FF.net, and how is it keeps saying that no MA content allowed. Well if that is the case, then why would FF.net have the option for M Rated material. That sounds a little hypercritical to me. To say NO on one subject matter being posted but still allow for it to be posted. After all, like DA, when you post something, you have to rate it before you submit it.

I am a little confused here. Perhaps because i just read and post art, that i dont know the finer details on the matter. I have been reading from Ff.net for 10years or more, what i find there is no different then what i find here.

Well, I don't think FF.net has the MA-rated option, which is a rating that should be used for stories that contain explicit sexual themes and dialog. Stories that are M-rated could still have sexual themes and the like, but it's toned down a lot more. The M-rating could also be used for extreme violence and strong language, so it's not just used for sexual content.

And DA? Well, I have no idea what the heck they're all about. I've seen things get deleted there that really didn't deserve to be, while the real porn which gets reported hundreds of times just get ignored. >.<

thanks guy's. i didn't realize that there was a difference between MA and M rating. I guess i would have considered everything from bad language to sex a MA rating.

Honey-Bee wrote:
animegrl wrote:
OK, Here is a question for everyone. Y'all keep talking about the TOS on FF.net, and how is it keeps saying that no MA content allowed. Well if that is the case, then why would FF.net have the option for M Rated material. That sounds a little hypercritical to me. To say NO on one subject matter being posted but still allow for it to be posted. After all, like DA, when you post something, you have to rate it before you submit it.

I am a little confused here. Perhaps because i just read and post art, that i dont know the finer details on the matter. I have been reading from Ff.net for 10years or more, what i find there is no different then what i find here.

Well, I don't think FF.net has the MA-rated option, which is a rating that should be used for stories that contain explicit sexual themes and dialog. Stories that are M-rated could still have sexual themes and the like, but it's toned down a lot more. The M-rating could also be used for extreme violence and strong language, so it's not just used for sexual content.

And DA? Well, I have no idea what the heck they're all about. I've seen things get deleted there that really didn't deserve to be, while the real porn which gets reported hundreds of times just get ignored. >.<

I can explain some of dA. (though I doubt anyone will really listen. I've explained it a million times.)

TL;DR version: If you don't like the rules, don't upload to the site. Find another one.

Explanation--

Your definition of porn and my definition of porn are completely different things.

Some people find artistic beauty in genitalia, both male and female. They see it, but are not essentially aroused by it. Example-- Statue of David. He's just chilling with it all hanging out, but it isn't like women are falling all over themselves in orgasmic joy over it.

The same with certain fetishes.

What they avoid are things that legally fall into the realm of pornography-- I.E. Penetration, erections, etc.

Spooning, hugging, kissing, etc do not necessarily fall into this realm, so you see quite a bit of it. Bondage, dressing up etc etc etc as long as there is no sexual ACT in it is perfectly allowed (and in my opinion can be kind of cool to look at. Some of those outfits are snazzy)

Pertaining to HERE-- they have a rule of no underaged girls both anime and real life. This stems from back in the day, BEFORE they had this rule, when it was kiddie porn after kiddy porn all over the front page. They also do the "No aging up Rule" because it falls into the same category. Drawing Kagome as she looks in the manga (15) but writing "Oh she's 21" well... sorry. Doesn't fly. Everyone ASSOCIATES her with being 15.

And before anyone gives me a hard time about it, NO, she was 18 for all of 5 minutes in the anime and all of like... 3 pages in the manga. Fight it all you want, but that is dA's stance on it. I am just explaining it to you.

dA HAS gotten into legal trouble over their users uploading illegal material such as kiddie porn and-- well... Okay, there was a guy who uploaded some photos of a decomposing body. Everyone was under the impression that it was make up. Turned out it wasn't, that he'd really killed this woman and put her photos up as some kind of weird memorial (I caught wind of it and saw his page before they took it down) They got in a TON of trouble over this.

So please, TRY to understand why the TOS is put into place in places like dA and ff.net. Don't make a fuss over it, just accept it and make a choice whether or not to use those sites.

And respect that Mods and site owners have to sometimes make decisions that upset everyone because one or two people screw up.

Terri-tots wrote:
I can explain some of dA. (though I doubt anyone will really listen. I've explained it a million times.)

TL;DR version: If you don't like the rules, don't upload to the site. Find another one.

Explanation--

Your definition of porn and my definition of porn are completely different things.

Some people find artistic beauty in genitalia, both male and female. They see it, but are not essentially aroused by it. Example-- Statue of David. He's just chilling with it all hanging out, but it isn't like women are falling all over themselves in orgasmic joy over it.

The same with certain fetishes.

What they avoid are things that legally fall into the realm of pornography-- I.E. Penetration, erections, etc.

Spooning, hugging, kissing, etc do not necessarily fall into this realm, so you see quite a bit of it. Bondage, dressing up etc etc etc as long as there is no sexual ACT in it is perfectly allowed (and in my opinion can be kind of cool to look at. Some of those outfits are snazzy)

Pertaining to HERE-- they have a rule of no underaged girls both anime and real life. This stems from back in the day, BEFORE they had this rule, when it was kiddie porn after kiddy porn all over the front page. They also do the "No aging up Rule" because it falls into the same category. Drawing Kagome as she looks in the manga (15) but writing "Oh she's 21" well... sorry. Doesn't fly. Everyone ASSOCIATES her with being 15.

And before anyone gives me a hard time about it, NO, she was 18 for all of 5 minutes in the anime and all of like... 3 pages in the manga. Fight it all you want, but that is dA's stance on it. I am just explaining it to you.

dA HAS gotten into legal trouble over their users uploading illegal material such as kiddie porn and-- well... Okay, there was a guy who uploaded some photos of a decomposing body. Everyone was under the impression that it was make up. Turned out it wasn't, that he'd really killed this woman and put her photos up as some kind of weird memorial (I caught wind of it and saw his page before they took it down) They got in a TON of trouble over this.

So please, TRY to understand why the TOS is put into place in places like dA and ff.net. Don't make a fuss over it, just accept it and make a choice whether or not to use those sites.

And respect that Mods and site owners have to sometimes make decisions that upset everyone because one or two people screw up.

Yes, I know all that. I've told other people the same thing, actually. XD I don't draw sexual images, so I'm not complaining about not being able to upload that. I actually had something else in mind when I wrote that, but it came out wrong. >.<

Like, there's this drawing on DA that got deleted where Ulquiorra (from Bleach) was standing and Orihime had her legs around his waist - no, not even his waist, his belly. They were both fully clothed and there was nothing sexual going on. It was apparently deleted for mature content, anyway. XD Then there's that drawing Youkaiyume drew of some character in Sailor moon. I think it was a waist-up shot of her not wearing any clothes, but it was from the side and her arms were up and covering her breasts. I'm pretty sure I've seen these kind of scenes in manga (an inner-mind thing?), and it was obviously done in an artistic and innocent way. That's what I meant. I don't have anything against nudity at all; I find drawings of artistic nudes beautiful. It's when people post pictures of themselves touching themselves up that I don't agree with. V_V

Oh my god! That actually happened? D8 I saw a picture the other day of a guy sitting beside a woman who was bleeding all over the floor and thought, "wouldn't that be creepy if people actually killed and took pictures of people and posted them on the site?" Ugh. I can't believe someone actually did that. That's sick. I hope he got arrested.

In Yume's case (and I am not dissing her at all, I am a huge fan) She broke a rule, and the moderators did their job. Yes, to ME it personally wasn't a huge deal and to a lot of people it isn't a big deal, but SOMEONE reported it, and the moderators looked at it and agreed that the rule had been broken.

Usagi was depicted as a minor for most of the series, save for a few future flashes. (again, all of maybe 5 minutes of the anime, and 3 pages in the manga)

Yes, it sucks, but its a rule and one that everyone on dA agrees to when they agree to the TOS. Yes, a lot of people get away with it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone gets away with it. In her case, she is ridiculously popular, so a lot of people see her work. All it takes is one person (even a fan) to think "Oh wow, she is only 16, this is breaking a rule *click*"

I believe that is part of the reason this bot was created. (Bringing it back to the topic at hand) this guy had a personal issue with people who were toeing the line, so he did this, and ff.net mods agreed to it.

Terri-tots wrote:
[quote]Honey-Bee wrote:
[quote]animegrl wrote:
[quote]

dA HAS gotten into legal trouble over their users uploading illegal material such as kiddie porn and-- well... Okay, there was a guy who uploaded some photos of a decomposing body. Everyone was under the impression that it was make up. Turned out it wasn't, that he'd really killed this woman and put her photos up as some kind of weird memorial (I caught wind of it and saw his page before they took it down) They got in a TON of trouble over this.
quote]

I realize that at any age I wouldn't want my son running into something like this...sometimes you just have to think about just that...do kids deserve to not know what they're clicking on and find out its something that might give them nightmares...

btw...ewww...just ewww

SesshysRose wrote:


I realize that at any age I wouldn't want my son running into something like this...sometimes you just have to think about just that...do kids deserve to not know what they're clicking on and find out its something that might give them nightmares...

btw...ewww...just ewww

That's why parents need to monitor their children's online experiences. I did. I know others that do. That's just what you DO when you are concerned about what your children might or might not run into.

Still, there are all-ages sites like ours that allow materials of an adult nature that are in danger of becoming extinct just because some minor slips underneath our radar and some parent discovers it and gets all self-righteous about it, blaming the site rather than themselves (or the minor who had to wrangle around any parental controls). The 'net is a big, sometimes bad, world, and parents owe it to themselves and their children to be the watchdogs - not to try to force adult sites into doing it for them.

I'm NOT saying I advocate any of the less than savory stuff that goes on... kiddie porn, decomposing corpses, etc. I am saying, though, that it is ultimately the parents' job to police what their kids see. We can only do so much to prevent the YIMs from accessing this stuff, y'know?
:?
~~Wiccan~~

completely agree...its way too easy for parents to blame eveyone but themselves for children getting into things they shouldn't net or otherwise...mine isn't even two yet so not very worried yet...but you can bet your buttons that when he does get on he will be monitored

I agree whole heartedly Wiccan. It is definitely a parent's responsibility to monitor what their kids look at on the internet just as much as it is their responsibility to monitor what their kids see on TV. The same principal applies really. It is impossible to completely stop kids from finding stuff if they are really trying to. I know my parents did their best to monitor me all the time and it frustrated me. I may not have been doing anything wrong in my case, but I know that even with all their monitoring I still could have gotten access to stuff that they didn't want me to see if I felt like looking.

Wow, we got off track in a creepy way...

I would like to say one thing about why people post their stories online, a point that Kelvin and others fail to address. Not everyone writes to improve their style. In fact, no writer writes for the same reason as any other writer.

We all have a huge spectrum of reasons behind why we post our work online. Some of us aspire to be published authors one day. Some of us need a way to simply express ourselves. Some of us have emotional problems, and find that this is the best way to deal with them. Some of us just want attention. Some of us just want to fantasize. Some of us are a blend of all of the above.

The thing is, is that we cannot lump every writer and every story under the "aspiring professional writer" category. Some people just don't care about improving. It's not their goal. What Kelvin should realize is that not everyone wants to write for the same reasons he does.

ladybattousai wrote:

The thing is, is that we cannot lump every writer and every story under the "aspiring professional writer" category. Some people just don't care about improving. It's not their goal. What Kelvin should realize is that not everyone wants to write for the same reasons he does.

I would also add to this that not everyone reads fanfic for the same reasons either. Sometimes I want an epic, in-depth, character driven saga. But other times I want a ridiculous little one-shot jaunt. I think that's why this whole thing bothers me so much, even though I'm not a writer. I'm offended on behalf of writers, but also on behalf of readers as well. It feels like this person and his little cult are circumventing my right to determine the quality of a story on my own, in a very patronizing 'For my own good' sort of way.

Personally, I think the RB-program is a wonderful concept. It helps FF.net to enforce their TOS and rules and keep the site to their standards, but they should keep in mind that is is only a program, and that program is written by a human(s), who are prone to negative feelings that affect their (should-be) un-biased opinion in what should be reported and what shouldn't.

As it has been stated many times, it's not the program that's at fault, but the admins and site-keepers who delete without investigating if those reports are accurate or not. Sure, this program, when first scanning the database, will propably flood the report boxes and make their life quite hard for a while, making "delete all"-option quite tempting, but that doesn't excuse sloppy work at all.

With that being said, I go save what I can of my Favorites-list on FF.net and try to minimize the damage to my reading experience for now. Oh boy, I do hope I get to sleep sometime within the next few weeks... I would humbly suggest others do the same, to save beautiful memories, nostalgia and awesome stories at risk of being erased for good.

To address something that has been said a couple times here and there about notification so that people could back up things before deletion.... If you primarily post here on Dokuga you generally get a notification about things because Ms. Wiccan and the others are quite awesome about that kind of thing. However, on the big sites like ff.net, AFF, mediaminer, etc. generally, there is no notification given if you are in violation about certain things, stuff is deleted outright. On AFF we notify you if there are certain kinds of problems so you can correct them before that step has to be taken but there are some kinds of things you get no notice about and the fic, as well as your account in some cases, will be gone with no notice at all. In cases like that, it's things we have no recourse but to do it do, like if someone is found to be underage, anything that is based on Anne Rices works and other such things that put the site at risk. Plus, when you get to a site the size of ff.net notification just doesn't happen. If your in violation, it's gone because you just don't have the manpower to send out the notice then check everything to ensure it's in compliance after it's been sent. Usually, as in the case of ff.net, it's buried deep in the legalese of their TOS that they will tell you they have the right to delete without notice or explanation. That's what they are doing in this case. I believe that most sites have that somewhere in their TOS as a way to protect themselves against certain things. It would be nice that they did that, to give people a chance to back up their work, but it doesn't happen.

like fanfic.net was all that trustworthy to begin with -.-